In this newsletter: My thoughts on the weekend's news about Russell Brand, and why I assume every man who hates women in his work, also hates women in his private life.
You are absolutely 100% correct. One thing about Howard Stern. He has apologized. Profusely. In the past few years he has looked back at his behavior and seems genuinely appalled with himself. Don’t you wish more men would do that? It would help a teeny tiny bit.
Remember when he wrote the book and his movie came out? At that time, I felt so sorry for his first wife. I couldn't understand how she reconciled what he did/talked about on the radio and her life with him. It would have been a hard no from me. The things people (HS not his wife necessarily) will do with, and for, fame (and power) is truly mind-bending.
I think it has a lot to do with being attracted to power. These men are attracted to being powerful and dominant, and society has told them women are easier dominate and have control over. They see women as things.
I could not agree with you more. And I find it depressing and very sad that he recently received a standing ovation. The women he assaulted are receiving the exact opposite :-(
I'm listening to MONSTERS by Claire Dederer and it's unpacking this very topic. It's also making me face realities we grew up with (being of a certain age) and how the label artistic genius is widely applied to men, by men. So far she's discussed Polanski, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, Picasso, Woody Allen, and I'm only 3 hours in. Re: Stern, I believe he's gotten LOTS of therapy around his behavior and I heard one apology where he labeled himself as a narcissist and said having daughters he wanted to have meaningful relationships with, he had to do A LOT of work. So there's a bit of a difference. Can we forgive more of past behavior if acknowledgement and self-work (and some self-loathing) are present? After all, they grew up with the paradigms too. I can't answer that. I suspect it's an individual decision we each face in our own time.
1. Definitely have to check out Monsters, thank you for sharing, and 2. You offer a very pointed question for reflection. These comments are making my brain work very hard today!
I'm sincerely happy to hear Stern has talking about working hard to become better. I believe people can change and become better; I believe in the idea of repentance. Though my understanding of repentance is a very specific thing that involves admitting you're wrong, asking forgiveness, and making restitution. I have a hard time imagining that Stern could make true restitution to the people he has harmed, and also maintain his wealth, status, and platform.
I'm glad Stern has changed; I'm really frustrated it took having daughters for him to see women as human (or maybe even just as someone else's daughter, which is not good or correct, women are not fucking possessions, ffs, but better than before).
When you say “and still the men Don’t believe her”. I think the actual problem is that they DO believe the women. They know what men do. They know how men behave. They know how they have behaved, and they will spread lie after lie to protect each other in their bad behavior.
I wanted to comment on your remarks about Howard Stern. I am not arguing against what you said...years ago I tried to listen to his radio show a few times after hearing raves from my stepson. I had the same reaction you did...everything I heard was vile, and I couldn’t listen to such disgusting talk.
Surprisingly, he happens to have grown daughters, and is married to a very wonderful woman who runs a charitable organization that rescues cats, cares for them and places them with families. I adopted 2 cats from her right before the pandemic started and met her when we picked up the cats.
I can’t reconcile the way her husband talks about women on the radio with his relationship with his wife Beth...it is a mystery to me. Just wanted to tell you about this...I am choosing to believe that his radio persona is very different than his real persona, although I personally wouldn’t be able to accept it. I think the misogyny on his program does much damage to those who listen and ascribe to those views.
Thanks for this! I felt the same way about Matt Lauer. I used to watch the Today show when my babies were infants and he was co-host - up early, bored between feedings etc. He was always so rude to Ann Curry and then one day I saw him "interview" Sandra Bullock. Whatever he did turned me off so much I never watched it again. I think we have a radar about awful men but we override those feelings with false rationales. Russell Brand always seemed so smug and self-important that none of this surprises me.
Yaaasssss to Matt Lauer! I watched the show for years, but I remember when they let Ann Curry go. It was so strange: she was crying and apologizing, there was no recap of her great career and Lauer’s dismissive attitude seemed so strange. I moved on to another morning show and soon the reports on Lauer came out. I always questioned my radar on that, but it’s always correct. You confirmed it for me today as well, glad to know I wasn’t the only one.
David Bowie slept with 14 year olds. Steven Tyler petitioned the parents of the teenager he was sleeping with for custody, so that he could legally take her over state lines. The members of Led Zeppelin and Vanilla Fudge tied a girl to the bed and then raped her with a dead fish, and Frank Zappa thought it was so hilarious he wrote a song about it. The Oldies airwaves are filled with people who would be arrested today (and should have been, in the 70s).
Thank you for writing this one, Gabrielle. I too cannot stop thinking about RB and had the now deflating thought, “of course.” (I work in the entertainment industry so I’ve always had the dubious honor of knowing before it goes public.) I am gloriously middle aged with x ray vision about a lot of life experiences, but aiming that knowledge beam towards men has been bringing me low more than I would like. It has now gone past the personal and into every man I encounter, yes all men. They are the ones who created the toxic stew we are all forced to swim in, and a few good ones are not enough to help keep us afloat. I’m angry a lot of the time. Howard Stern and his disgusting media empire (whether he’s an active abuser or not) is a perfect example of why misogyny is so dangerous to us all. I think he’d argue that it is all a complex and long running act intended to poke fun and be ridiculous, but as we know that ONLY MAKES IT WORSE AND DANGEROUS for women and therefore the world. What the f are these men afraid of? Ugh. Appreciate your time and writing on this.
Re: Howard Stern, I’ve read more than once that his wife is the dominant partner. No idea if that’s true, but make of it what you will.
Re Russell Brand, Americans might not have seen the Times and Sunday Times story (London, not NY) but the journos don’t just have the “receipts,” they have the text messages where -- in the case of the woman who went to the rape crisis center -- she texts him “you raped me,” and he answers, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” Not “what are you talking about, it was consensual.” It’s just a horrible story and more women are coming forward. Brand doesn’t just want to be an influencer, he wants to be a cult leader, IMO, so I hope this nips *that* in the bud.
I watched the documentary. It was harrowing. Agreed, I think a lot of the people leaping to defend him don't understand how much of an open secret it was that he was a predator, and people who worked for him and his friends were not exempt from his worst behavior.
I too have heard people say Howard Stern is a great interviewer. It’s reminds me of people saying that Playboy publishes great writing. Maybe there are some quality interviews in there, but are they SO GOOD that a listener/reader can look past the objectification of women they’re built upon? Or do the “good” interviews just give folks plausible deniability to also consume the woman-objectifying material that they’re wrapped in?
To your point about rock stars of the 80s, I’m thinking of the interview the NYT published last week with Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Webber, who just published a book called “The Masters” featuring interviews with seven musicians who are all white men. He didn’t include a single Black artist or woman in the book. When asked why, he said that Black musicians were “just not in my zeitgeist,” and “Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.” This is the co-founder of Rolling Stone AND the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame! He’s the very definition of a gatekeeper! No wonder racism and misogyny are rampant in the industry.
I'm sorry. I cannot make those assumptions with you. It's against everything I feel deeply and believe.
I find Howard Stern disgusting. My hope is that time changes people. If he or Russell Brand have changed, then they have my pity and compassion. I hope they pay the price for their actions. And I hope they have changed. Both can be true.
(How would you characterize the women who participate in these kinds of discussions and activities? Are they being coerced? Are they willingly going along? Are they misogynists? Are they self-loathing? I'm genuinely very curious what you think.)
Please, if we were to ever meet, don't judge me now based on my choices as a teen or 20-something or 30-something or 40-something or 50-something. Etc. I don't deny responsibility for my choices. But I am not the same person. Because I know this from personal experience, I will allow the same grace for others. Justice must be satisfied. I agree with you. But I am also wise enough to know that human justice won't always be right.
I see so much change in the world since 1980. You write as if you don't see any progress. It's been almost 40 years. My children listen to music from the 80s and they have a very different sensibility about it. They of course don't know about the conversations we were having and the general milieu surrounding these artists and the times. They are unaware of how deeply my generation was entrenched in this kind of thinking and accepting of the messages and behaviors of the day. So much has changed. I would never go back there again.
I think hate is a strong word. And generally I feel you misuse it quite a lot. Men certainly have complicated and confusing thoughts and feelings about women. Actual women they know in their personal lives. And women who are just out there, in the world, not personal, not "human". It seems more the fault of our society then the fault of private individuals. They are not outliers. They are not unique. They just haven't been taught, trained, expected, or motivated to reign in the monsters. They haven't been properly civilized. The real culprit being modern media, meaning pretty much anything from the 20th century to today.
My daughter had another student, during high school in 2012, casually and unprovoked ask her if she was ready to have sex with him. This was in open, full-view and hearing of other students at the lunch table. When I confronted the school authorities about this, they responded with rolling eyes and shrugs and "What would you like us to do?" I asked, "Would you accept this kind of behavior from a colleague?" Of course not, they responded. I said, then do what must be done. Train them differently. Educate them. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that this will not be tolerated. This kind of boys-will-be-boys behavior is completely unacceptable. It will only lead to future improper thoughts and behaviors about women. My hope was that the high school would incorporate some kind of rally or movement or Moms Against Sexism or something. I'm disgruntled with the American educational system today. But I digress.
The definition of heterosexual should stay as is. The inhumanity and lack of respect for others, no matter one's sexual orientation, should change. Personally, I believe it starts with the arts. And of course, the educational system needs to reinforce and raise the standard. We all could do a little better to demand that others stop the disrespect and lack of civilized behaviors.
I know you are in France, but have you attended a business meeting with men and women. The amount of acceptable sexism is astounding. You would be shocked what Europeans will allow in the public and business and political sector. Shocking! It's quite apparent that America is leading the world in change.
Thank you for speaking up. I like that the conversation continues. There's no where to go but up.
I generally think that if you haven't lived outside the United States it would be very difficult to know exactly what is occuring in the culture in other places and intelligently comment on it. I've lived outside the US extensively. Five different countries. The USA far and away exceeds in every way the changes that need to happen in the world. I have travelled to over 40 countries in the past 30 years and seen for myself what women and families are experiencing all over the world. There is nothing happening like what is happening in the USA. Every culture has the problems we have. At least Americans are talking about it. Things are happening. Society is shaking up. Things are changing. Life in the US is changing. You won't find that anywhere else to the same degree. I could give you more examples than this comment section would allow.
If you have something to add I would love to hear it. If you are only going to rely on what the media tells us, again, I repeat, modern media is the problem.
"...a bizarre thing to claim, and so easily refuted." Everything is easily refuted. That is what discussion and debate and dialogue are all about. That's what makes the interchange so interesting. I could easily respond with the same exact comment to more than half of the things you write. But I respect that process. And I appreciate that you know nothing about me. So I thank you for your respectful response.
As for data. That is a slippery slope. And likewise for anecdotal accounts, of which there are myriad from every perspective.
I have seen enough and know enough and lived enough to realize that America is the freest and most enlightened nation so far. It probably won't remain so. You know, great empires cannot seem to handle their own greatness and tend to rot from within. Greece. Rome. Israel. Etc. (I speak historically/anciently of course.)
The changes I was referring to were issues addressed in your post. I'm not saying change is happening fast. Or that it isn't two steps forward and one step back. And I agree that we have a very long way to go. But to deny that change is happening is just ignorance. And some ingratitude if I may say. To be so outraged and displeased with life must be so exhausting.
These kinds of conversations are not happening in most countries. Women are often complicit, and at best, dismissive of openly sexist comments and talk. I have repeatedly witnessed intelligent and capable women defend and even support inappropriate sexist behavior. This is much worse than just remaining silent. In fact, the only women I know personally (meaning in private conversation and personal or professional interactions) to be discussing issues like these are American women. Wherever they may be. I have found, the most aware and respectful men are American men. Especially post-Boomers. Generation X is lagging but catching-up little by little. You could name almost any other culture or region and I could give you personal examples of misogyny, sexism, and inappropriate behavior.
Any ranking or claims of greater rights for women in other places, may very well be the case. I am not arguing that. But remember, these places also come with limited personal freedoms, smaller populations which are more easily controlled, and less privacy. Some of the countries mentioned were Canada, Finland, and New Zealand. Along with Scandinavian countries. These governments are highly enmeshed in the lives of citizens and residents. I'm not sure what you would be willing to give up. 200% tax on your primary vehicle purchased? Or maybe freedom of speech? Everything has an opportunity cost. Including women's rights. At least until it all gets sorted out in the end.
The last thing I will say, is your post title, "At This Point, Let's Assume They All Have A History of Sexual Assault" is divisive and provocative. I think we can agree that most men need a larger than healthy dose of BarbieWorld. And a little less hate would go a long way.
Modern media is what exposed Brand as a predator. I don't think painting the media with a broad brush is an especially nuanced take either.
The US does ok, but it's not even in the top ten best countries for women, I think. I don't know if any of the countries you traveled to were in Scandinavia, but they all, plus Finland, Canada, and New Zealand all have better reputations. I don't know how you can ignore that *we don't even have full reproductive rights here anymore*! I can't travel to, or work or live in a large handful of states because if I have some kind of medical emergency involving my reproductive system, I can't guarantee I will get care. And trans women here are under threat of genocide. Full stop. Sweden has better rape laws. The Netherlands have amazing gender equity.
I don't want to drone on forever but you get the idea.
I didn't mean for my comment about the media to be a broad brush stroke. But that doesn't negate the argument that the media is the problem. Including social media. Media is biased. It's as much about what they don't say as what they do say. On any given topic. Not just evidences of misogyny in American culture.
The countries you mentioned, I have been to all of them and was born and lived in one of them. I am not making a case for women's rights. I am making a case for change. And good change that allows for the greatest amount of personal freedom. China, Afghanistan, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and North Korea all punish rape with death. I don't want to live in any of those countries. But maybe you do if that is your idea of an ideal place for women. (I personally think castration should be considered as an appropriate punishment in some cases.)
Could America be better? YES!!!! But of all the places I have lived and visited, I wouldn't want any place else. (So far.)
I have a hard time understanding what point you are trying to make here. You refute the use of "hate" but then you make it pretty clear that this is society-wide issue of mistreatment of women by men. How is that complicated? What else would you call it? I mean, there is plenty of academic writing about the patriarchy and white supremacy that we all live under in the U.S., and women's rights have gone *backwards* since I was a child, even as we have made a certain amount of progress in other ways. Because there's a backlash to that progress.
And you also seem to kind of excuse Brand's actions because they happened . . . like ten years ago? or less? He raped and sexually assaulted multiple women. I sure hope he's changed too, but I can and will judge him for being a serial predator and taking no accountability for it, in fact, trying to hide from accountability behind conspiracy theory bs. I'm a prison abolitionist, but I also don't think I can forgive someone something like that just because it happened a few years ago.
Exception was taken because of the post title. If you recall: At This Point, Let's Assume They All Have A History of Sexual Assault. This is blatantly a dishonest and perverse claim. Men are complicated. In my experience, men don't understand women, more than they hate women. They keep wanting to treat women like they treat men. How dumb is that?
You mentioned academic writing. I'm not sure what you are referring to. If you mean smart people writing something provocative and extreme to sell a million books so that women can call themselves victims, be angry and mean and feel justified, then okay. Does the patriarchy exist? Yes. Are there white supremacists? Yes. It's not correct to conflate the two.
There is absolutely no excuse for RB's reprehensible alleged actions. It doesn't matter if it was 50 years ago. All must accept responsibility for choices, good and bad ones. I am saying that two things can be true. Everyone makes bad choices. Everyone can deserve grace.
I would love to hear your thoughts on prison abolition. It is a subject that has recently fascinated me and I don't know enough about but I have so many thoughts. I think America has so much wrong here. Probably generated by early protestant colonizers and practices that persisted from early European roots. I mean America inherited so much garbage behavior.
Also, what are your thoughts on kings, queens, and royalty?
Men do NOT treat women like other men. “In your experience” is of course putting the kindest possible light on centuries of oppression. Men love to claim they don’t “understand” women. I guess that’s why they just have to treat us like objects.
As for your ignorance of academic writing, I am completely unsurprised. Nor am I surprised that you dismiss it so easily. Surely if YOU don’t know it, it is not worth knowing.
And if you did read, you would know that patriarchy and white supremacy go together like peanut butter and chocolate. I don’t know why you think you get to tell me it isn’t “correct” when you a) are such a moral relativist about everything else, and b) clearly don’t know anything about the subject.
Everyone *can* deserve grace, but I don’t see why you feel the need to bring it up when he hasn’t done anything to deserve it yet. Why do you feel the need to move so quickly to forgiveness when these crimes have just come to light? Why do you think it’s your place to tell other people how to feel about his crimes?
Thank you so much for your genius- getting to the point of Misogyny..! I think we women have to encourage to change .. so that women recognize Misogyne .. Blindfolded!! And that women stop with putting up with being abused .. so that a strong WORLD WIDE NETWORK is establishing to implement the fight against Misogyny.. in Germany: Band Rammstein is getting away with Droging and Raping women !!! In Austria a Pedophilie Teichtmeister Actor for FREE only 2 years on Perol !!! It is I sane ! So your genius Writing is SUPER IMPORTANT and ESSENTIAL to bring Awareness Acceptance and ACTION to stop and implement strong Boundaries against Misogyny..!
Thank you for this. Love how you don't tip-toe around difficult topics. As a wife, mother, sister and daughter surrounded by hetero men I think about this All. The. Time. Sometimes ("binders full of women," #metoo, la manada when we lived in Spain) it's been really painful to feel empathy for all my men, because even if we accept that hetero masculinity is "challenging" it's got nothing on the experience of identifying as female.
Years ago I read somewhere that if men are struggling to figure out if how they're treating a woman is "appropriate," they can use this simple litmus test: "Would you do / say that to The Rock?" The answer quickly becomes obvious : )
You are absolutely 100% correct. One thing about Howard Stern. He has apologized. Profusely. In the past few years he has looked back at his behavior and seems genuinely appalled with himself. Don’t you wish more men would do that? It would help a teeny tiny bit.
Remember when he wrote the book and his movie came out? At that time, I felt so sorry for his first wife. I couldn't understand how she reconciled what he did/talked about on the radio and her life with him. It would have been a hard no from me. The things people (HS not his wife necessarily) will do with, and for, fame (and power) is truly mind-bending.
This is a very interesting idea-- how the term heterosexual is too broad. I hadn't considered that before.
I think it has a lot to do with being attracted to power. These men are attracted to being powerful and dominant, and society has told them women are easier dominate and have control over. They see women as things.
I could not agree with you more. And I find it depressing and very sad that he recently received a standing ovation. The women he assaulted are receiving the exact opposite :-(
I'm listening to MONSTERS by Claire Dederer and it's unpacking this very topic. It's also making me face realities we grew up with (being of a certain age) and how the label artistic genius is widely applied to men, by men. So far she's discussed Polanski, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, Picasso, Woody Allen, and I'm only 3 hours in. Re: Stern, I believe he's gotten LOTS of therapy around his behavior and I heard one apology where he labeled himself as a narcissist and said having daughters he wanted to have meaningful relationships with, he had to do A LOT of work. So there's a bit of a difference. Can we forgive more of past behavior if acknowledgement and self-work (and some self-loathing) are present? After all, they grew up with the paradigms too. I can't answer that. I suspect it's an individual decision we each face in our own time.
1. Definitely have to check out Monsters, thank you for sharing, and 2. You offer a very pointed question for reflection. These comments are making my brain work very hard today!
I'm sincerely happy to hear Stern has talking about working hard to become better. I believe people can change and become better; I believe in the idea of repentance. Though my understanding of repentance is a very specific thing that involves admitting you're wrong, asking forgiveness, and making restitution. I have a hard time imagining that Stern could make true restitution to the people he has harmed, and also maintain his wealth, status, and platform.
I'm glad Stern has changed; I'm really frustrated it took having daughters for him to see women as human (or maybe even just as someone else's daughter, which is not good or correct, women are not fucking possessions, ffs, but better than before).
Thank you for talking about this.
When you say “and still the men Don’t believe her”. I think the actual problem is that they DO believe the women. They know what men do. They know how men behave. They know how they have behaved, and they will spread lie after lie to protect each other in their bad behavior.
I wanted to comment on your remarks about Howard Stern. I am not arguing against what you said...years ago I tried to listen to his radio show a few times after hearing raves from my stepson. I had the same reaction you did...everything I heard was vile, and I couldn’t listen to such disgusting talk.
Surprisingly, he happens to have grown daughters, and is married to a very wonderful woman who runs a charitable organization that rescues cats, cares for them and places them with families. I adopted 2 cats from her right before the pandemic started and met her when we picked up the cats.
I can’t reconcile the way her husband talks about women on the radio with his relationship with his wife Beth...it is a mystery to me. Just wanted to tell you about this...I am choosing to believe that his radio persona is very different than his real persona, although I personally wouldn’t be able to accept it. I think the misogyny on his program does much damage to those who listen and ascribe to those views.
Thanks for this! I felt the same way about Matt Lauer. I used to watch the Today show when my babies were infants and he was co-host - up early, bored between feedings etc. He was always so rude to Ann Curry and then one day I saw him "interview" Sandra Bullock. Whatever he did turned me off so much I never watched it again. I think we have a radar about awful men but we override those feelings with false rationales. Russell Brand always seemed so smug and self-important that none of this surprises me.
Yaaasssss to Matt Lauer! I watched the show for years, but I remember when they let Ann Curry go. It was so strange: she was crying and apologizing, there was no recap of her great career and Lauer’s dismissive attitude seemed so strange. I moved on to another morning show and soon the reports on Lauer came out. I always questioned my radar on that, but it’s always correct. You confirmed it for me today as well, glad to know I wasn’t the only one.
David Bowie slept with 14 year olds. Steven Tyler petitioned the parents of the teenager he was sleeping with for custody, so that he could legally take her over state lines. The members of Led Zeppelin and Vanilla Fudge tied a girl to the bed and then raped her with a dead fish, and Frank Zappa thought it was so hilarious he wrote a song about it. The Oldies airwaves are filled with people who would be arrested today (and should have been, in the 70s).
Thank you for writing this one, Gabrielle. I too cannot stop thinking about RB and had the now deflating thought, “of course.” (I work in the entertainment industry so I’ve always had the dubious honor of knowing before it goes public.) I am gloriously middle aged with x ray vision about a lot of life experiences, but aiming that knowledge beam towards men has been bringing me low more than I would like. It has now gone past the personal and into every man I encounter, yes all men. They are the ones who created the toxic stew we are all forced to swim in, and a few good ones are not enough to help keep us afloat. I’m angry a lot of the time. Howard Stern and his disgusting media empire (whether he’s an active abuser or not) is a perfect example of why misogyny is so dangerous to us all. I think he’d argue that it is all a complex and long running act intended to poke fun and be ridiculous, but as we know that ONLY MAKES IT WORSE AND DANGEROUS for women and therefore the world. What the f are these men afraid of? Ugh. Appreciate your time and writing on this.
Re: Howard Stern, I’ve read more than once that his wife is the dominant partner. No idea if that’s true, but make of it what you will.
Re Russell Brand, Americans might not have seen the Times and Sunday Times story (London, not NY) but the journos don’t just have the “receipts,” they have the text messages where -- in the case of the woman who went to the rape crisis center -- she texts him “you raped me,” and he answers, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” Not “what are you talking about, it was consensual.” It’s just a horrible story and more women are coming forward. Brand doesn’t just want to be an influencer, he wants to be a cult leader, IMO, so I hope this nips *that* in the bud.
Yes, and it's maddening that there are people acting like these are some sort of casual accusations.
I watched the documentary. It was harrowing. Agreed, I think a lot of the people leaping to defend him don't understand how much of an open secret it was that he was a predator, and people who worked for him and his friends were not exempt from his worst behavior.
I too have heard people say Howard Stern is a great interviewer. It’s reminds me of people saying that Playboy publishes great writing. Maybe there are some quality interviews in there, but are they SO GOOD that a listener/reader can look past the objectification of women they’re built upon? Or do the “good” interviews just give folks plausible deniability to also consume the woman-objectifying material that they’re wrapped in?
To your point about rock stars of the 80s, I’m thinking of the interview the NYT published last week with Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Webber, who just published a book called “The Masters” featuring interviews with seven musicians who are all white men. He didn’t include a single Black artist or woman in the book. When asked why, he said that Black musicians were “just not in my zeitgeist,” and “Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.” This is the co-founder of Rolling Stone AND the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame! He’s the very definition of a gatekeeper! No wonder racism and misogyny are rampant in the industry.
I've been following the story on Jann Webber and it's so gross and infuriating.
Honestly having watched him on tv in my 20s (2000s) not surprised at all, he just came across as a man I would not want to be alone with.
I'm sorry. I cannot make those assumptions with you. It's against everything I feel deeply and believe.
I find Howard Stern disgusting. My hope is that time changes people. If he or Russell Brand have changed, then they have my pity and compassion. I hope they pay the price for their actions. And I hope they have changed. Both can be true.
(How would you characterize the women who participate in these kinds of discussions and activities? Are they being coerced? Are they willingly going along? Are they misogynists? Are they self-loathing? I'm genuinely very curious what you think.)
Please, if we were to ever meet, don't judge me now based on my choices as a teen or 20-something or 30-something or 40-something or 50-something. Etc. I don't deny responsibility for my choices. But I am not the same person. Because I know this from personal experience, I will allow the same grace for others. Justice must be satisfied. I agree with you. But I am also wise enough to know that human justice won't always be right.
I see so much change in the world since 1980. You write as if you don't see any progress. It's been almost 40 years. My children listen to music from the 80s and they have a very different sensibility about it. They of course don't know about the conversations we were having and the general milieu surrounding these artists and the times. They are unaware of how deeply my generation was entrenched in this kind of thinking and accepting of the messages and behaviors of the day. So much has changed. I would never go back there again.
I think hate is a strong word. And generally I feel you misuse it quite a lot. Men certainly have complicated and confusing thoughts and feelings about women. Actual women they know in their personal lives. And women who are just out there, in the world, not personal, not "human". It seems more the fault of our society then the fault of private individuals. They are not outliers. They are not unique. They just haven't been taught, trained, expected, or motivated to reign in the monsters. They haven't been properly civilized. The real culprit being modern media, meaning pretty much anything from the 20th century to today.
My daughter had another student, during high school in 2012, casually and unprovoked ask her if she was ready to have sex with him. This was in open, full-view and hearing of other students at the lunch table. When I confronted the school authorities about this, they responded with rolling eyes and shrugs and "What would you like us to do?" I asked, "Would you accept this kind of behavior from a colleague?" Of course not, they responded. I said, then do what must be done. Train them differently. Educate them. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that this will not be tolerated. This kind of boys-will-be-boys behavior is completely unacceptable. It will only lead to future improper thoughts and behaviors about women. My hope was that the high school would incorporate some kind of rally or movement or Moms Against Sexism or something. I'm disgruntled with the American educational system today. But I digress.
The definition of heterosexual should stay as is. The inhumanity and lack of respect for others, no matter one's sexual orientation, should change. Personally, I believe it starts with the arts. And of course, the educational system needs to reinforce and raise the standard. We all could do a little better to demand that others stop the disrespect and lack of civilized behaviors.
I know you are in France, but have you attended a business meeting with men and women. The amount of acceptable sexism is astounding. You would be shocked what Europeans will allow in the public and business and political sector. Shocking! It's quite apparent that America is leading the world in change.
Thank you for speaking up. I like that the conversation continues. There's no where to go but up.
"It's quite apparent that America is leading the world in change."
Umm...wtf. Can I curse on here? No. A thousand times no.
Have you lived anywhere else in the world?
Is that required to have an informed opinion?
I generally think that if you haven't lived outside the United States it would be very difficult to know exactly what is occuring in the culture in other places and intelligently comment on it. I've lived outside the US extensively. Five different countries. The USA far and away exceeds in every way the changes that need to happen in the world. I have travelled to over 40 countries in the past 30 years and seen for myself what women and families are experiencing all over the world. There is nothing happening like what is happening in the USA. Every culture has the problems we have. At least Americans are talking about it. Things are happening. Society is shaking up. Things are changing. Life in the US is changing. You won't find that anywhere else to the same degree. I could give you more examples than this comment section would allow.
If you have something to add I would love to hear it. If you are only going to rely on what the media tells us, again, I repeat, modern media is the problem.
"The USA far and away exceeds in every way the changes that need to happen in the world."
This seems like such a bizarre thing to claim, and so easily refuted. Do you have data informing this view? Or is this just a feeling you have?
Thank you for responding and asking.
"...a bizarre thing to claim, and so easily refuted." Everything is easily refuted. That is what discussion and debate and dialogue are all about. That's what makes the interchange so interesting. I could easily respond with the same exact comment to more than half of the things you write. But I respect that process. And I appreciate that you know nothing about me. So I thank you for your respectful response.
As for data. That is a slippery slope. And likewise for anecdotal accounts, of which there are myriad from every perspective.
I have seen enough and know enough and lived enough to realize that America is the freest and most enlightened nation so far. It probably won't remain so. You know, great empires cannot seem to handle their own greatness and tend to rot from within. Greece. Rome. Israel. Etc. (I speak historically/anciently of course.)
The changes I was referring to were issues addressed in your post. I'm not saying change is happening fast. Or that it isn't two steps forward and one step back. And I agree that we have a very long way to go. But to deny that change is happening is just ignorance. And some ingratitude if I may say. To be so outraged and displeased with life must be so exhausting.
These kinds of conversations are not happening in most countries. Women are often complicit, and at best, dismissive of openly sexist comments and talk. I have repeatedly witnessed intelligent and capable women defend and even support inappropriate sexist behavior. This is much worse than just remaining silent. In fact, the only women I know personally (meaning in private conversation and personal or professional interactions) to be discussing issues like these are American women. Wherever they may be. I have found, the most aware and respectful men are American men. Especially post-Boomers. Generation X is lagging but catching-up little by little. You could name almost any other culture or region and I could give you personal examples of misogyny, sexism, and inappropriate behavior.
Any ranking or claims of greater rights for women in other places, may very well be the case. I am not arguing that. But remember, these places also come with limited personal freedoms, smaller populations which are more easily controlled, and less privacy. Some of the countries mentioned were Canada, Finland, and New Zealand. Along with Scandinavian countries. These governments are highly enmeshed in the lives of citizens and residents. I'm not sure what you would be willing to give up. 200% tax on your primary vehicle purchased? Or maybe freedom of speech? Everything has an opportunity cost. Including women's rights. At least until it all gets sorted out in the end.
The last thing I will say, is your post title, "At This Point, Let's Assume They All Have A History of Sexual Assault" is divisive and provocative. I think we can agree that most men need a larger than healthy dose of BarbieWorld. And a little less hate would go a long way.
Modern media is what exposed Brand as a predator. I don't think painting the media with a broad brush is an especially nuanced take either.
The US does ok, but it's not even in the top ten best countries for women, I think. I don't know if any of the countries you traveled to were in Scandinavia, but they all, plus Finland, Canada, and New Zealand all have better reputations. I don't know how you can ignore that *we don't even have full reproductive rights here anymore*! I can't travel to, or work or live in a large handful of states because if I have some kind of medical emergency involving my reproductive system, I can't guarantee I will get care. And trans women here are under threat of genocide. Full stop. Sweden has better rape laws. The Netherlands have amazing gender equity.
I don't want to drone on forever but you get the idea.
I didn't mean for my comment about the media to be a broad brush stroke. But that doesn't negate the argument that the media is the problem. Including social media. Media is biased. It's as much about what they don't say as what they do say. On any given topic. Not just evidences of misogyny in American culture.
The countries you mentioned, I have been to all of them and was born and lived in one of them. I am not making a case for women's rights. I am making a case for change. And good change that allows for the greatest amount of personal freedom. China, Afghanistan, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and North Korea all punish rape with death. I don't want to live in any of those countries. But maybe you do if that is your idea of an ideal place for women. (I personally think castration should be considered as an appropriate punishment in some cases.)
Could America be better? YES!!!! But of all the places I have lived and visited, I wouldn't want any place else. (So far.)
I have a hard time understanding what point you are trying to make here. You refute the use of "hate" but then you make it pretty clear that this is society-wide issue of mistreatment of women by men. How is that complicated? What else would you call it? I mean, there is plenty of academic writing about the patriarchy and white supremacy that we all live under in the U.S., and women's rights have gone *backwards* since I was a child, even as we have made a certain amount of progress in other ways. Because there's a backlash to that progress.
And you also seem to kind of excuse Brand's actions because they happened . . . like ten years ago? or less? He raped and sexually assaulted multiple women. I sure hope he's changed too, but I can and will judge him for being a serial predator and taking no accountability for it, in fact, trying to hide from accountability behind conspiracy theory bs. I'm a prison abolitionist, but I also don't think I can forgive someone something like that just because it happened a few years ago.
Exception was taken because of the post title. If you recall: At This Point, Let's Assume They All Have A History of Sexual Assault. This is blatantly a dishonest and perverse claim. Men are complicated. In my experience, men don't understand women, more than they hate women. They keep wanting to treat women like they treat men. How dumb is that?
You mentioned academic writing. I'm not sure what you are referring to. If you mean smart people writing something provocative and extreme to sell a million books so that women can call themselves victims, be angry and mean and feel justified, then okay. Does the patriarchy exist? Yes. Are there white supremacists? Yes. It's not correct to conflate the two.
There is absolutely no excuse for RB's reprehensible alleged actions. It doesn't matter if it was 50 years ago. All must accept responsibility for choices, good and bad ones. I am saying that two things can be true. Everyone makes bad choices. Everyone can deserve grace.
I would love to hear your thoughts on prison abolition. It is a subject that has recently fascinated me and I don't know enough about but I have so many thoughts. I think America has so much wrong here. Probably generated by early protestant colonizers and practices that persisted from early European roots. I mean America inherited so much garbage behavior.
Also, what are your thoughts on kings, queens, and royalty?
Men do NOT treat women like other men. “In your experience” is of course putting the kindest possible light on centuries of oppression. Men love to claim they don’t “understand” women. I guess that’s why they just have to treat us like objects.
As for your ignorance of academic writing, I am completely unsurprised. Nor am I surprised that you dismiss it so easily. Surely if YOU don’t know it, it is not worth knowing.
And if you did read, you would know that patriarchy and white supremacy go together like peanut butter and chocolate. I don’t know why you think you get to tell me it isn’t “correct” when you a) are such a moral relativist about everything else, and b) clearly don’t know anything about the subject.
Everyone *can* deserve grace, but I don’t see why you feel the need to bring it up when he hasn’t done anything to deserve it yet. Why do you feel the need to move so quickly to forgiveness when these crimes have just come to light? Why do you think it’s your place to tell other people how to feel about his crimes?
Thank you so much for your genius- getting to the point of Misogyny..! I think we women have to encourage to change .. so that women recognize Misogyne .. Blindfolded!! And that women stop with putting up with being abused .. so that a strong WORLD WIDE NETWORK is establishing to implement the fight against Misogyny.. in Germany: Band Rammstein is getting away with Droging and Raping women !!! In Austria a Pedophilie Teichtmeister Actor for FREE only 2 years on Perol !!! It is I sane ! So your genius Writing is SUPER IMPORTANT and ESSENTIAL to bring Awareness Acceptance and ACTION to stop and implement strong Boundaries against Misogyny..!
Drugs .. sorry typo .. Drogen ( German ) Drugs .. Drugging .. apologies
Thank you for this. Love how you don't tip-toe around difficult topics. As a wife, mother, sister and daughter surrounded by hetero men I think about this All. The. Time. Sometimes ("binders full of women," #metoo, la manada when we lived in Spain) it's been really painful to feel empathy for all my men, because even if we accept that hetero masculinity is "challenging" it's got nothing on the experience of identifying as female.
Years ago I read somewhere that if men are struggling to figure out if how they're treating a woman is "appropriate," they can use this simple litmus test: "Would you do / say that to The Rock?" The answer quickly becomes obvious : )